Diskusi Seru Seputar penyaliban

http://www.devotedservants.com/cross.htm

NOT A CROSS TO BE FOUND

Rev. Dr. Michael T. Welhous

One of the reasons why I pursued a degree in Christian ministry, and became an ordained Nondenominational Christian minister, was because I became increasingly disturbed at what I heard coming from the pulpits of the various churches I attended. I had been studying the Scriptures for many years, and it amazed me that the congregations were not hearing the simple truths contained in God’s word. I felt the need to share with people the truth about what the Bible actually says about various things. All to often, people accept what the various members of the clergy state as fact, without questioning it and without taking the time to verify their statements.

Most of these truths are not difficult to understand. They are simple Scriptural facts that are not being conveyed to the people. One such truth is the fact that most English translations of the Bible refer to a “cross,” yet the fact is that the word “cross” is an inaccurate translation of the original Greek word stauros. Simply put, a “cross,” i.e., two intersecting beams of wood, is nowhere to be found in the Bible!

The cross has become the foremost symbol in Christendom, so this would obviously be disturbing news to many Christians who have crosses hanging on their walls, around their necks, on loved ones graves, in front of their churches, on the alter of their churches, and even mentioned in songs they sing.

The question, however, must be asked: “Since nothing in the ancient Greek manuscripts which were compiled to form the New Testament portion of the Bible, suggests nor implies an instrument composed of two intersecting beams of wood, then where did the term, image, and subsequent symbol come from?”

First, there is no doubt that the Greek word stauros has been inaccurately translated as “cross.” In Classical Greek literature, stauros simply meant “an upright stake or post.” The verb stauroo meant “to fence with pales (stakes), to form a stockade (a barrier constructed from stakes or timbers driven upright into the ground one beside the other).” There is nothing at all found in the Scriptures to suggest a crossbeam of any kind at any angle, therefore, stauros means the same thing in the Bible, as it did in Classical Greek writings.

Second, there is another Greek word used by the New Testament writers when describing the execution of Jesus. It is the word xylon, which means “timber,” and by implication “a stick, club or tree.” Notice again that there is nothing to suggest a crossbeam of any kind or at any angle. Consider the following references where xylon occurs, and notice that it is consistently translated “tree.”

Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.”

Acts 10:39 “And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews,and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.”


Acts 13:29 “And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.”

Galatians 3:13 “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”

1 Peter 2:24 “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

Interestingly, when we read the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of the Old Testament written in the same koine, i.e. “common” Greek as the New Testament, we find xylon at Ezra 6:11. There it is spoken of as “timber” on which the violator of the law was to be hanged.

“And a decree has been made by me, that every man who shall alter this word, timber

shall be pulled down from his house, and let him be lifted up and slain upon it, and his

house shall be confiscated.” (Ezra 6:11, The Septuagint – An English Translation)

If we were to read the Bible in the original languages – Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek – we would NEVER have the mental picture of a “cross.” Even when the Bible began to be translated into Latin, translators used the Latin word crux, which also does not specifically suggest a two-beam intersecting instrument.

The Latin dictionary by Lewis and Short states that the meaning of crux was “a tree, frame, or other wooden instruments of execution, on which criminals were impaled or hanged.” In the writings of Livy, who was a Roman historian of the first century B.C., crux means merely a stake.

“[Crucifixion] was an ancient mode of capital punishment, and is said to have been devised by Semiramis. It was in use by the Persians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, Scythians, Greeks, Romans, and ancient Germans. It was a most shameful and degrading punishment, and among the Romans was the fate of robbers, assassins, and rebels. It was especially the punishment of criminal slaves. There were several kinds of crosses used.” (Manners And Customs Of The Bible, James M. Freeman, page 394, paragraph 2.) [Semiramis was a Mesopotamian queen.]

Since there were many kinds of impalement instruments used by the Romans and the other nations, to definitively identify any particular “cross,” and relate to others that it is the exact type of “cross” that Jesus died on, especially given the Scriptural evidence of simply a “stake” and “tree,” is for a clergy member or Bible teacher, irresponsible at best!

In writing to the believers in Galatia, Paul said, “though we [i.e., the apostles], or an angel

from heaven, publicly announce any other gospel to you than that which we have publicly

announced to you, let him be eternally condemned. As we said before, so say I now

again, if any man publicly announce any other gospel to you than that you have received,

let him be eternally condemned.” (Galatians 1:8-9) Given Paul’s exhortation, we must

make every effort NEVER to add anything to God’s word by publicly announcing something

that simply is not what the Bible is announcing.

The Bible speaks of the “stake” and the “tree,” NEVER a “cross.”

In addition to all of this, many would be surprised to know that the cross many Christians hold dear today, has it’s roots in pagan worship.

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

mang odoy wrote:@SEGOROWEDI

Walowpun saya tau....anda datang ke forum ini cuman MODAL IMAN DOANG.... tapi setidaknya..saya ngasih bukti ILMIAH bahwa kata SALIB yang dipake untuk menerjemahkan kata STAROS dalam Bible terjemahan LEMBAGA ALKITAB INDONESIA.....
...adalah...
BULLSHITT...!!!

terus seharusnya diterjemahkan bagaimana?
sudah ditanya dari sejak abad 7, masih ngacir mulu

http://thewordsofeternallife.com/cross.html

Origin Of The Cross

A tradition of the Church which our fathers have inherited, was the adoption of the words "cross" and "crucify." These words are nowhere to be found in the Greek of the New Testament. These words are mistranslations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says, "STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake...Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pole, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea (Babylon), and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)...By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the pretige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted..." [1]

Dr. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, appx. 162 states,
"crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god...It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper...The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon and upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." [2]

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross
"this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz." [3]

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read,
"In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolised by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman cross. [4]

Greek dictionaries, lexicons and other study books also declare the primary meaning of stauros to be an upright pale, pole or stake. The secondary meaning of "cross" is admitted by them to be a "later" rendering. At least two of them do not even mention "cross," and only render the meaning as "pole or stake." In spite of this strong evidence and proof that the word stauos should have been translated "stake," and the verb stauroo to have been translated "impale," almost all the common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate's crux (cross), a "later" rendering of the Greek stauros. [5]

While it is true that stauros means stake or pole, it does not rule out that a cross piece was not attached to it. Look at modern times for example. A post often has something else attached to it like a wire fence, a mail box, or even a sign. The Greek word "stauros" itself does not explain whether anything is, or is not attached to it. Even early Christian writers spoke of the cross as having four limbs pointing above, below, and to both sides. Irenaeus mentioned the cross as "two in length, and two in breadth." Justin Martyr spoke of the cross as having "one beam placed upright" and "the other beam fitted on to it." [6]

Historical evidence points to Constantine as the one who had the major share in uniting Sun-worship and the Messianic Belief. Constantine's famous vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun," in the year 312, is usually cited. Writers, ignorant of the fact that the cross was not to be found in the New Testament Scriptures, put much emphasis on this vision as the onset of the so-called "conversion" of Constantine. But, unless Constantine had been misguided by the Gnostic Manichean half-Christians, who indeed used the cross in their hybrid religion, this version of the cross superimposed on the sun could only be the same old solar cross, the symbol of the Sun-deity, the centre of cosmic religion, the astrological religion of Babylon. [7]

The fact remains: that which Constantine saw, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. We read in the book of Johannes Geffcken, The Last Days of Greco-Roman Paganism. p. 319, "that even after 314 A.D. the coins of Constantine show an even-armed cross as a symbol for the Sun-god." [8]

Many scholars have doubted the "conversion" of Constantine because of the wicked deeds that he did afterwards, and because of the fact that he only requested to be baptized on his death-bed many years later, in the year 337. So, if the vision of the cross impressed him, and was used as a rallying symbol, it could not have been in honour of our Saviour, because Constantine is attested of by his persistent use of images of the Sun-deity on his coins that were issued by him up to the year 323. Secondly, the fact of his motivation to issue his Sunday-keeping edict in the year 321, which was not done in honour of our Saviour, but was done because of the "venerable day of the Sun," as the edict read, is proof of his continued allegiance to Sol Invictus. We shall expand on this laster on. [9]

Where did the cross come from, then?

J.C. Cooper, An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, p.45, aptly summarizes it,
"Cross--A universal symbol from the most remote times; it is the cosmic symbol par excellence." Other authorities also call it a sun-symbol, a Babylonian sun-symbol, an astrological Babylonian-Assyrian and heathen sun-symbol, also in the form of an encircled cross referred to as a "solar wheel," and many other varieties of crosses. Also, "the cross represents the Tree of Life, the age-old fertility symbol, combining the vertical male and horizontal female principles, especially in Egypt, either as an ordinary cross, or better known in the form of the crus ansata, the Egyptian ankh (sometimes called: the Tau cross), which had been carried over into our modern-day symbol of the female, well known in biology. [10]

As stated above, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the mystic Tau of the Babylonians and Egyptians, was brought into the Church chiefly because of Constantine, and has since been adored with all the homage due only to the Most Hight. The Protestants have for many years refrained from undue adoration of, or homage to, the cross, especially in England at the time of the Puritans in the 16th and 17th centuries. But lately this un-Scriptural symbol has been increasingly accepted in Protestantism. We have previously discussed "the weeping for Tammuz," and the similarity between the Easter resurrection and the return or rising of Tammuz. Tammuz was the young incarnate Sun, the Sun-divinity incarnate. This same Sun-deity, known amongst the Babylonians as Tammuz, was identified with the Greek Adonis and with the Phoenician Adoni, all of them Sun-deities, being slain in winter, then being "wept for," and their return being celebrated bu a festivity in spring, while some had it in summer--according to the myths of pagan idolarty. [11]

The evidence for its pagan origin is so convincing that The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "the sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization." It then continues and refers to the Tau cross of the pagan Egyptians, "In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross." [12]

Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.E.
The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "The cross thus widely worshipped, or regarded as a 'sacred emblem,' was the unequivocal symbol of Bacchus, the Babylonian Messiah, for he was represented with a head-band convered with crosses." [13]

After Constantine had the "vision of the cross," he ahd his army promoted another variety of the cross, the Chi-Rho or Labarum. This has subsequently been explained as representing the first letters of the name Christos, But again, this had a pagan origin. They were found as inscriptions on rock, dating from the year ca. 2500 B.C.E., being interpreted as "a combination of two Sun-symbols, known as the Ax- or Hammer-symbol of the Sun- or Sky-deity, and the + or X as the ancient symbol of the Sun, both of these signs having a sensual or fertility meaning as well. Another proof of its pagan origin is found on a coin of Ptolemeus III from the year 247-222 B.C.E. [14]

A well-known encyclopedia describes the Labarum (Chi-Rho) as, "The labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean (Babylonian) sky-god and in Christianity it was adopted..." Emperor Constantine adopted this Labarum as the imperial ensign and thereby succeeded in "uniting both divisions of his troops, pagans and Christians, in a common worship... [15]

According to Suicer the word (labarum) came into use in the reign of Hadrian, and was probably adopted from one of the nations conquered by the Romans." It must be remembered that Hadrian reigned in the years 76-138 C.E., that he was a pagan emperor, worshipped the Sun-deity Serapis when he visited Alexandria, and was vehemently anti-Judaistic, beign responsible for the final near-destruction of Jerusalem in the year 130 C.E. [16]

Another dictionary relates the following about the Chi-Rho, "However, the symbol was in the use long before Christianity, and X (Chi) probably stood for Great Fire or Sun, and P (Rho) probably stood for Pater or Patah (Father). The word labarum (la-baar-um) yields everlasting Father Sun." [17]

Let me give you one last thing to dwell on. In Ezekial 9, it speaks of a mark that was placed upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof (Eze 9:4). The Pulpit Commentary says that According to the best interpretation of the text the mark seems to have been a cross. According to Harper's Bible Commentary the letter tau in Near Eastern languages could be written as "+" or "T" and so it was not unnatural for early Christian writers, such as Origen and Tertullian, to see in this a type of the cross of Christ. Now remember, it was the Lord who had commanded that the mark (or "T") be placed on the forehead of the righteous. If this was a symbol of Tammuz which God despised, then why would He have this mark put on the foreheads of those men?

If the pagans who worshipped Tammuz whose symbol was a cross, as Hislop tells us, then placing this mark on the righteous would be inconsistent when looking at the context, for only eight verses earlier (Eze 8:14) Tammuz worshipped was condemned! [18]

There are a number of interesting things I could point to about the so-called history of these pagan origins. The sad truth is that most “pagan origin” claims come from the work of an Alexander Hislop. For those who have taken the time to check out Hislop, they will discover that his research on the pagan origins is often contradictory. Read what “The Saturday Review” dated September 17, 1859, p. 340. had to say about Hislop’s work:

In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it.

Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

Thirdly, Mr. Hislop’s method of reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted…into something totally different.

Fourthly, Mr. Hislop’s argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system…

We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable. [19]

Now about C.J. Koster's book "Come Out Of Her, My People", Roy Ingle, a Christian book reviewer, had the following to say:

C.J. Koster's COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE was given to me by a lady who left our church for the radical Messianic Jewish followers such as Koster and Michael Rood. I read the book with great doubts about the book since most serious Messianic Jewish Gentiles I have met were simply bizarre. This book did nothing more than confirm this view.

Koster appears to have taken most of his information from the cult, the Assemblies of Yahweh. His insistance upon using the various Hebrew names for God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit go from poor understandings of the Greek language to flat out denials. His writing style is poor and the structure of the book appears to not have been very well thought out. Koster appears mad throughout the book at the "established Church" and he seems mad enough to essentially condemn anyone who calls the holy Scriptures "the Bible" or calls Yahushua "Jesus" or has a cross up in their meetings or calls their assemblies "church" or who worship on Sunday (or some other day other than Saturday and dare not call the days or months by its Greek names!) than they are going to burn forever. Further, any follower of the Messiah not keeping the entire Law of Moses is lost! Ironically, few Jews have "converted" to Messianic Jewish roots despite Koster's belief that this will usher in a great harvest of Jews into the kingdom of Elohim. Could it be they see the error of the Sacred Name Movement as do many Gentiles such as I?

For me, Koster and the rest of the radical Messianic follwers are nothing more than the Pharisees of Acts 15. They seek to add to the salvation given to us by Jesus Christ (Acts 15:9-11). They want us to keep the Law of Moses but not one person (including themselves) is capable of doing so (Galatians 3:11). How sad that these men have dived into a works salvation that focuses on rules rather than on Christ's atoning sacrifice (Colossians 2:11-23). I for one thank God that I am free from the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13-14) and that Jesus brings no condemnation (Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:1-13). [20]

BAKUL KOPI wrote:ane bilang juga apa mang

mang odoy wrote:

Inilah yang kita dapat sekarang ini :
Sebuah KAYU PALANG akan terlalu berat untuk seseorang membawanya sepanjang perjalanan ke Calvary, sementara sebuah BALOK TUNGGAL akan lebih mudah dalam membawanya. Bukti Ilmiah juga mendukung penggunaan KAYU PANCANG LURUS daripada sebuah Cross-Kayu Palang dalam kasus pembunuhan Sang Mesiah. Karena sebuah Cross-Kayu Palang akan memakan waktu berhari-hari untuk membuat si terhukum terbunuh, dan Kitab Kanon menyatakan bahw kematian terjadi dalam hitungan jam, dan hal ini merujuk ke TIANG LURUS. Bersamaan dengan hal ini, diketahui bahwa ide Yesus terbunuh di Cross-Kayu Palang datang 3 abad kemudian setelah kematian Yesus sebagai salah satu cara menyambut masuknya pengikut Pagan kedalam agama Kristen. Beberapa hal dengan berdasar pada Bahasa Asli dari Kitab Kanon (Yunani), bukti menunjukkan dengan jelas bahwa alat yang sebenarnya yang dipake untuk mengeksekusi sang Mesiah adlah KAYU PANCANG LURUS.

mang odoy wrote:
NGACIR dari hongkingg...!!!
Baca tuh BANTAHAN dari saya, kalo saya diskusi di forum kaya gini jelas DASAR HUKUM dari hujah hujah saya disini....bukan kaya anda...IMAN dan HATI yang dipake....OTAK ditaruh di DENGKUL...wkwkwkwkwkwk

Coba itu organ vital yang nemplok dipala itu DIPAKE....!
Ngomong ngomong...bisa bahasa inggris ga nehh....???????
Panjang lebar saya ngejelasin...ternyata bahasa inggris sajah kagak becus.....!!
Jiahhhhh....sama aja ane ngobrol sama KAMBING....

kalopun misalnya salibnya lurus, terus mau disebut tidak disalib begitu?atau harus disebut apa?

teus hubungannya degan judul tret apa?

kenapa simbol salib balok tidak ernag dikenal orang kristen?

analisisnya patut dihargai, tetapi toh semua hanya sebatas teori bahkan asumsi
misalnya soal berat kayunya antara lurus dan silang terkait kekuatan fisik si terhukum
demikian juga kecepatan kematian antara disalib lurus/silang
silang/lurus tidak tertulis secara eksplisit

seandainya salibnya lurus, terus kenapa?

http://commontruth.com/CrossOrStake.html

SCIENTIFIC PROOF
BUKTI ILMIAH

As for death resulting from being nailed up, the most popular thought is that the Messiah would die of suffocation/asphyxiation. Frederick T. Zugibe, (Adjunct Associate Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons), performed extensive experiments to test this theory: He took volunteers and crucified them (they weren't actually nailed, they were suspended by belts and straps on a sturdily constructed cross). He conducted two variations of crucifixion: One with a suppedaneum (a wooden block upon which toes would be supported, helping a victim stay supported on a cross/stauros ) and one without a suppendanuem. The results can be read at these websites here: http://www.crucifixion-shroud.com/Turin2000.htm and http://www.west.net/~shroud/zugibe.htm. These experiments show that a man on a cross would NOT suffocate to death, with or without a suppedaneum.

Adapun kematian akibat dipaku, pendapat yang paling populer adalah bahwa Mesias akan mati lemas / sesak napas. Frederick T. Zugibe, (Adjunct Associate Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons), , melakukan eksperimen yang luas untuk menguji teori ini: Ia mengambil relawan dan crucify mereka (mereka tidak benar-benar dipaku, mereka digantung dengan ikat pinggang dan tali di kayu palang yang kokoh). Dia melakukan dua variasi krusifiksi: Satunya dengan suppedaneum http://www.talktalk.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0012433.html (sebuah balok kayu yang mana si kaki korban bisa menginjaknya, membantu korban tetap tergantung pada sebuah kayu silang/kayu pancang lurus) dan satunya tanpa suppendanuem. Hasil dapat dibaca di situs sini:

1. http://www.crucifixion-shroud.com/Turin2000.htm

2. http://www.west.net/~shroud/zugibe.htm

Percobaan ini menunjukkan bahwa seorang pria di KAYU SILANG tidak akan tercekik sampai mati, dengan atau tanpa suppedaneum.


By way of comparison, Hermann Moedder, a doctor of radiology from Austria, carried out an experiment in the 1940's in Cologne, Germany, with medical students. He strapped them with their wrists directly above their heads Within minutes the students grew pale, their lung capacity and blood pressure dropped significantly, and their pulse rates increased. Moedder concluded suffocation would occur in minutes if they were not able to stand and rest. Though we don't have complete information about this experiment, it appears that a suppedaneum wasn't used, neither was a sedile (a block of wood attached to the stauros to support the buttocks slightly). This makes a difference because such devices can act as supports that the victim on the stauros could use for support in the breathing issues involved

Dengan cara perbandingan, Hermann Moedder, seorang dokter radiologi dari Austria, melakukan percobaan di tahun 1940 di Cologne, Jerman, dengan mahasiswa kedokteran. Dia mengikat mereka dengan cara pergelangan tangan di atas kepala mereka Dalam beberapa menit mahasiswa mahasiswa tersebut pucat, kapasitas paru-paru dan tekanan darah turun secara signifikan, dan detak urat nadi mereka meningkat. Moedder menyimpulkan mati lemas akan terjadi dalam beberapa menit jika mereka tidak mampu berdiri dan beristirahat. Meskipun kita tidak memiliki informasi lengkap tentang percobaan ini, tampak bahwa suppedaneum tidak digunakan, tidak juga SEDILE (sebuah balok kayu yang dilekatkan pada stauros untuk mendukung pantat sedikit). Hal ini membuat perbedaan karena perangkat tersebut dapat berperan sebagai pendukung yang mana korban pada stauros bisa menggunakannya sebagai dukungan dalam masalah pernapasan yang terlibat..


Now this is where the comparison of the two experiments is interesting: According to the bible, a crucified man's legs were broken in order to hasten death (John 19:31-32). This would indicate, according to the results of the above mentioned experiments, that Yeshua Messiah and the two robbers were killed on singular poles . Breaking their legs would take away the usefulness of the suppedaneum's support, thus hastening their deaths by suffocation. This would not happen on a cross, according to Dr. Zugibe's experiments.

Sekarang, ini adalah di mana perbandingan dua eksperimen menarik: Menurut Alkitab, kaki seorang pria yang disalibkan itu patah dalam rangka mempercepat kematian

John 19:31 (New American Standard Bible) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2019:31&version=NASB

Care of the Body of Jesus
31Then the Jews, because it was (A)the day of preparation, so that (B)the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a (C)high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


(31) Karena hari itu hari persiapan dan supaya pada hari Sabat mayat-mayat itu tidak tinggal tergantung pada kayu salib--sebab Sabat itu adalah hari yang besar--maka datanglah orang-orang Yahudi kepada Pilatus dan meminta kepadanya supaya kaki orang-orang itu dipatahkan dan mayat-mayatnya diturunkan (Yohanes 19:31-32).

Hal ini mengindikasikan, menurut hasil eksperimen yang disebutkan di atas, bahwa Yeshua Mesias dan dua perampok tewas di tiang tunggal. Mematahkan kaki mereka akan menghilangkan fungsi/kegunaan dari dukungan suppedaneum, dengan demikian mempercepat kematian mereka dengan cara mati lemas. Hal ini tidak akan terjadi di kayu palang, menurut percobaan Dr Zugibe's.

mang odoy wrote:Ini dikarenakan anda dan mungkin semua Kristen selama berabad abad sudah TERMAKAN DOGMA.....bahwa STAUROS ini adalah SALIB/CROSS (Kayu Palang).....

Saya ingatkan lagi....Instrument yang dipake untuk mengeksekusi Yesus adalah STAUROS (Kayu Lurus)....Kata kerja yang dipake untuk mengeksekusi Yesus adalah STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN sebagaimana saya singgung didepan, yang makna nya adalah TO IMPALE = MEMANTEK/DIPANTEK. Sedangkan selama ini kata kerja tersebut sudah diartikan dengan kata TO CRUCIFY dan LAI menggunakan kata kerja MENYALIB.

Jadi menanggapi pertanyaan anda diatas......kalo anda masih ada NURANI untuk menghargai bahasa Ibu dari Kitab Kanonik...terjemahan yang sesuai dan apa adanya sesuai bahasa Aslinya yaitu..

MEREKA "MEMANTEK" YESUS.....

mang odoy wrote:Ini dikarenakan DOGMA yang telah berkarat selama berabad abad, jangan kan umat Kristen....Umat Muslim pun sudah termakan dogma bahwa SALIB adalah Kayu Palang....di tret yang saya suguhkan ke anda, sudah saya bantah habis habisan, bahwa saya MERAGUKAN semua Hadist yang menyatakan bahwa SALIB yang secara tatabahasa Arab berakar kata pada SHAD LAM BA ini adalah KAYU PALANG/LAMBANG AGAMA KRISTEN...

mang odoy wrote:Pertanyaan saya kepada Muslim yang berfaham demikian sederhana aja..

"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

Dan terbukti...sampe sekarang belum ada yang sanggup untuk menjawab pertanyaan saya diatas...!!!
Wasalam,

mang odoy wrote:Silahkan anda baca lagi BUKTI ILMIAH diatas...yang sebenarnya adalah ESSAY BUNUH DIRI...mengapa saya katakan demikian...????

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

mang odoy wrote:Ini dikarenakan anda dan mungkin semua Kristen selama berabad abad sudah TERMAKAN DOGMA.....bahwa STAUROS ini adalah SALIB/CROSS (Kayu Palang).....

Saya ingatkan lagi....Instrument yang dipake untuk mengeksekusi Yesus adalah STAUROS (Kayu Lurus)....Kata kerja yang dipake untuk mengeksekusi Yesus adalah STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN sebagaimana saya singgung didepan, yang makna nya adalah TO IMPALE = MEMANTEK/DIPANTEK. Sedangkan selama ini kata kerja tersebut sudah diartikan dengan kata TO CRUCIFY dan LAI menggunakan kata kerja MENYALIB.

Jadi menanggapi pertanyaan anda diatas......kalo anda masih ada NURANI untuk menghargai bahasa Ibu dari Kitab Kanonik...terjemahan yang sesuai dan apa adanya sesuai bahasa Aslinya yaitu..

MEREKA "MEMANTEK" YESUS.....

jadi mo usul ke LAI supaya 'menyalib' diganti 'memantek', gitu? usul ditampung..
terus menyalib versi quran seperti apa, pantek apa bukan?

MO :

Kalow Depag RI menerjemahkan kata SHALABUU dengan kata MENYALIB...itu TEPAT SEKALI dan tidak menyalahi kaedah bahasa...tapi kalo LAI menerjemahkan kata STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN dengan kata MENYALIB...itu JAUH KEMANA MANA...karena kata Stauroo/Estaurosan....artinya adalah TO IMPALE/MEMANTEK...sedangkan kata SHALABUU=MENYALIB artinya bisa berbeda beda tergantung luka yang diakibatkan oleh kata kerja MENYALIB tersebut....kata MENYALIB dalam Al-Quran dipake di 3 jaman Nabi yaitu YUSLABU (Nabi Yusuf).. USALLIB (Nabi Musa) dan SHALABUU (Nabi Isa).....
Semua kata kerja MENYALIB dalam Al-Quran pun...sudah dibabat rata dengan diartikan TO CRUCIFY, seolah olah sama artinya dengan kata STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN, yang diartikan TO CRUCIFY juga.
Sperti yang telah saya katakan, pembahasan kata kerja SHALABUU versus STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN ini akan saya bahas di bahasa kedua.
Sekarang, kita fokus lagi ke STAUROS....KAYU LURUS.

mang odoy wrote:Ini dikarenakan DOGMA yang telah berkarat selama berabad abad, jangan kan umat Kristen....Umat Muslim pun sudah termakan dogma bahwa SALIB adalah Kayu Palang....di tret yang saya suguhkan ke anda, sudah saya bantah habis habisan, bahwa saya MERAGUKAN semua Hadist yang menyatakan bahwa SALIB yang secara tatabahasa Arab berakar kata pada SHAD LAM BA ini adalah KAYU PALANG/LAMBANG AGAMA KRISTEN...

dogma dari siapa? mereka punya simbol salib silang sejak nenek-moyang..
itu artinya secara salib silanglah Yesus dihukum, anda hanya modal 'arti kata'..
tetapi LAI bahkan MUI/Depag anda tabrak

MO:

Nenek moyang yang mana pak...????
Belon tau ya...kalo Kristen jaman awal, malah memakai GAMBAR IKAN sebagai lambang agama...???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism

Ichthys

Among the symbols employed by the early Christians, that of the fish seems to have ranked first in importance. Indeed, from monumental sources such as tombs we know that the symbolic fish was familiar to Christians from the earliest times. It can be seen in such Roman monuments as the Capella Greca and the Sacrament Chapels of the catacomb of St Callistus. The fish was depicted as a Christian symbol in the first decades of the 2nd century.[4] The symbol itself may have been suggested by the miraculous multiplication of the loaves and fishes or the repast of the seven Disciples, after the Resurrection, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee.[5] Its popularity among Christians was due principally, it would seem, to the famous acrostic consisting of the initial letters of five Greek words forming the word for fish (Ichthys), which words briefly but clearly described the character of Christ and the claim to worship of believers: Iesous Christos Theou Yios Soter, meaning, Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.[4]

Cross and crucifix

The Crucifix, a cross with corpus, a symbol used by the Catholic Church, in Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism, in contrast with some Protestant denominationswhich use only a bare Cross.,
The cross, which is today one of the most widely recognised symbols in the world, was used as a symbol from the earliest times. This is indicated in the anti-Christian arguments cited in the Octavius of Minucius Felix, chapters IX and XXIX, written at the end of that century or the beginning of the next,[7][8] and by the fact that by the early 3rd century the cross had become so closely associated with Christ that Clement of Alexandria, who died between 211 and 216, could without fear of ambiguity use the phrase τὸ κυριακὸν σημεῖον (the Lord's sign) to mean the cross, when he repeated the idea, current as early as the Epistle of Barnabas, that the number 318 (in Greek numerals, ΤΙΗ) in Genesis 14:14 was a foreshadowing (a "type") of the cross (T, an upright with crossbar, standing for 300) and of Jesus (ΙΗ, the first two letters of his name ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, standing for 18),[9] and his contemporary Tertullian could designate the body of Christian believers as crucis religiosi, i.e. "devotees of the Cross".[10] In his book De Corona, written in 204, Tertullian tells how it was already a tradition for Christians to trace repeatedly on their foreheads the sign of the cross.[11]

The Jewish Encyclopedia states:
The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, "Apologia," i. 55-60; "Dial. cum Tryph." 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona," iii.; Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21-22; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix. Christians used to swear by the power of the cross.[12][13]

Although the cross was known to the early Christians, the crucifix did not appear in use until the 5th century.[3] French Medievalist scholar and historian of ideas M.-M. Davy has described in great details Romanesque Symbolism as it developed in the Middle Ages in Western Europe

Jadi, saran saya...jangan kebanyakan memdem didalam kamar sendirian sambil diterangi cahaya lilin nungguin Roh Kudus datang, banyak baca, buka wawasan.
Kalo modal cuman IMAN doang.....Tai Kotok (Tai Ayam) bisa sajah dikatakan KUEH COKLAT, karena warnanya sama, lain halnya kalo Otak dan Indera lain dipake, pasti bisa dibedain, mana TAI KOTOK...mana KUEH COKLAT.

mang odoy wrote:Pertanyaan saya kepada Muslim yang berfaham demikian sederhana aja..

"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

Dan terbukti...sampe sekarang belum ada yang sanggup untuk menjawab pertanyaan saya diatas...!!!
Wasalam,

buktinya: salib balok tak pernah dikenal bahkan oleh kristen arab

MO :

Kristen Arab yang mana pak...??? yang sekarang...???...ya iyalah...
Yang saya tanyakan...coba dibaca lagi pertanyaannya pak...jangan asal JEPLAK kalo jawab...

"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

Tuh..yang saya GARIS BAWAHI...itu POINT nya..!!!
Sini bawa bukti sejarahnya, kalo emang ada.... sekalian bantuin tuh Muslim Faham STUNTMEN.
Jangan IMAN mulu yang dibawa ke tret ini....wkwkwkwkwkw...

mang odoy wrote:Silahkan anda baca lagi BUKTI ILMIAH diatas...yang sebenarnya adalah ESSAY BUNUH DIRI...mengapa saya katakan demikian...????

lha malah membuktikan mati di kayu salib
kok lari ke bunuh diri?

MO :

Jiahhhh...belon ngerti rupanya....he he he

http://commontruth.com/CrossOrStake.html

SCIENTIFIC PROOF
BUKTI ILMIAH

As for death resulting from being nailed up, the most popular thought is that the Messiah would die of suffocation/asphyxiation. Frederick T. Zugibe, (Adjunct Associate Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons), performed extensive experiments to test this theory: He took volunteers and crucified them (they weren't actually nailed, they were suspended by belts and straps on a sturdily constructed cross). He conducted two variations of crucifixion: One with a suppedaneum (a wooden block upon which toes would be supported, helping a victim stay supported on a cross/stauros ) and one without a suppendanuem. The results can be read at these websites here: http://www.crucifixion-shroud.com/Turin2000.htm and http://www.west.net/~shroud/zugibe.htm. These experiments show that a man on a cross would NOT suffocate to death, with or without a suppedaneum.

Adapun kematian akibat dipaku, pendapat yang paling populer adalah bahwa Mesias akan mati lemas / sesak napas. Frederick T. Zugibe, (Adjunct Associate Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons), , melakukan eksperimen yang luas untuk menguji teori ini: Ia mengambil relawan dan crucify mereka (mereka tidak benar-benar dipaku, mereka digantung dengan ikat pinggang dan tali di kayu palang yang kokoh). Dia melakukan dua variasi krusifiksi: Satunya dengan suppedaneum http://www.talktalk.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0012433.html (sebuah balok kayu yang mana si kaki korban bisa menginjaknya, membantu korban tetap tergantung pada sebuah kayu silang/kayu pancang lurus) dan satunya tanpa suppendanuem. Hasil dapat dibaca di situs sini:

1. http://www.crucifixion-shroud.com/Turin2000.htm

2. http://www.west.net/~shroud/zugibe.htm

Percobaan ini menunjukkan bahwa seorang pria di KAYU SILANG tidak akan tercekik sampai mati, dengan atau tanpa suppedaneum.


By way of comparison, Hermann Moedder, a doctor of radiology from Austria, carried out an experiment in the 1940's in Cologne, Germany, with medical students. He strapped them with their wrists directly above their heads Within minutes the students grew pale, their lung capacity and blood pressure dropped significantly, and their pulse rates increased. Moedder concluded suffocation would occur in minutes if they were not able to stand and rest. Though we don't have complete information about this experiment, it appears that a suppedaneum wasn't used, neither was a sedile (a block of wood attached to the stauros to support the buttocks slightly). This makes a difference because such devices can act as supports that the victim on the stauros could use for support in the breathing issues involved

Dengan cara perbandingan, Hermann Moedder, seorang dokter radiologi dari Austria, melakukan percobaan di tahun 1940 di Cologne, Jerman, dengan mahasiswa kedokteran. Dia mengikat mereka dengan cara pergelangan tangan di atas kepala mereka Dalam beberapa menit mahasiswa mahasiswa tersebut pucat, kapasitas paru-paru dan tekanan darah turun secara signifikan, dan detak urat nadi mereka meningkat. Moedder menyimpulkan mati lemas akan terjadi dalam beberapa menit jika mereka tidak mampu berdiri dan beristirahat. Meskipun kita tidak memiliki informasi lengkap tentang percobaan ini, tampak bahwa suppedaneum tidak digunakan, tidak juga SEDILE (sebuah balok kayu yang dilekatkan pada stauros untuk mendukung pantat sedikit). Hal ini membuat perbedaan karena perangkat tersebut dapat berperan sebagai pendukung yang mana korban pada stauros bisa menggunakannya sebagai dukungan dalam masalah pernapasan yang terlibat..


Now this is where the comparison of the two experiments is interesting: According to the bible, a crucified man's legs were broken in order to hasten death (John 19:31-32). This would indicate, according to the results of the above mentioned experiments, that Yeshua Messiah and the two robbers were killed on singular poles . Breaking their legs would take away the usefulness of the suppedaneum's support, thus hastening their deaths by suffocation. This would not happen on a cross, according to Dr. Zugibe's experiments.

Sekarang, ini adalah di mana perbandingan dua eksperimen menarik: Menurut Alkitab, kaki seorang pria yang disalibkan itu patah dalam rangka mempercepat kematian

John 19:31 (New American Standard Bible) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2019:31&version=NASB

Care of the Body of Jesus
31Then the Jews, because it was (A)the day of preparation, so that (B)the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a (C)high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


(31) Karena hari itu hari persiapan dan supaya pada hari Sabat mayat-mayat itu tidak tinggal tergantung pada kayu salib--sebab Sabat itu adalah hari yang besar--maka datanglah orang-orang Yahudi kepada Pilatus dan meminta kepadanya supaya kaki orang-orang itu dipatahkan dan mayat-mayatnya diturunkan (Yohanes 19:31-32).

Hal ini mengindikasikan, menurut hasil eksperimen yang disebutkan di atas, bahwa Yeshua Mesias dan dua perampok tewas di tiang tunggal. Mematahkan kaki mereka akan menghilangkan fungsi/kegunaan dari dukungan suppedaneum, dengan demikian mempercepat kematian mereka dengan cara mati lemas. Hal ini tidak akan terjadi di kayu palang, menurut percobaan Dr Zugibe's.

Dari hasil studi diatas.....ada beberapa hal yang harus anda pertimbangkan.

Pertama :
Silahkan anda mencoba untuk memperaktekkan 2 adegan berikut :
1. Kedua Tangan Terbentang ke kiri dan kanan.
2. Kedua tangan DIRAPATKAN KE ATAS dengan posisi ada dibelakang kepala.

Pada posisi nomer satu.....maka anda akan merasakan bahwa anda tidak merasa kesulitan sama sekali dalam bernafas. Lain halnya ketika anda coba yang nomer 2...maka anda akan merasa kesulitan bernafas karena posisi paru paru agak terangkat.

Kedua :
Dari hasil percobaan posisi tangan seperti di point pertama....kita korelasikan dengan KRONOLOGIS di Kitab Kanon ketika Yesus dan 2 Preman Pasar dieksekusi.

a. 2 Preman Pasar LANGSUNG MOKAT, ketika kakinya DIPATAHKAN
b. SEKETIKA...KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR...dari Lambung Yesus yang ditusuk oleh Prajurit Romawi.

Nah...OPERAN dari saya mah..segitu aja dulu...pelan pelann...biar ASSYIKKK....

mang odoy wrote:Kalow Depag RI menerjemahkan kata SHALABUU dengan kata MENYALIB...itu TEPAT SEKALI dan tidak menyalahi kaedah bahasa...tapi kalo LAI menerjemahkan kata STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN dengan kata MENYALIB...itu JAUH KEMANA MANA...karena kata Stauroo/Estaurosan....artinya adalah TO IMPALE/MEMANTEK...sedangkan kata SHALABUU=MENYALIB artinya bisa berbeda beda tergantung luka yang diakibatkan oleh kata kerja MENYALIB tersebut....kata MENYALIB dalam Al-Quran dipake di 3 jaman Nabi yaitu YUSLABU (Nabi Yusuf).. USALLIB (Nabi Musa) dan SHALABUU (Nabi Isa).....
Semua kata kerja MENYALIB dalam Al-Quran pun...sudah dibabat rata dengan diartikan TO CRUCIFY, seolah olah sama artinya dengan kata STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN, yang diartikan TO CRUCIFY juga.
Sperti yang telah saya katakan, pembahasan kata kerja SHALABUU versus STAUROO/ESTAUROSAN ini akan saya bahas di bahasa kedua.
Sekarang, kita fokus lagi ke STAUROS....KAYU LURUS.

mang odoy wrote:MO:

Nenek moyang yang mana pak...????
Belon tau ya...kalo Kristen jaman awal, malah memakai GAMBAR IKAN sebagai lambang agama...???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism

mang odoy wrote:Cross and crucifix
The Crucifix, a cross with corpus, a symbol used by the Catholic Church, in Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism, in contrast with some Protestant denominationswhich use only a bare Cross.,

mang odoy wrote:Although the cross was known to the early Christians, the crucifix did not appear in use until the 5th century.[3] French Medievalist scholar and historian of ideas M.-M. Davy has described in great details Romanesque Symbolism as it developed in the Middle Ages in Western Europe

mang odoy wrote:Jadi, saran saya...jangan kebanyakan memdem didalam kamar sendirian sambil diterangi cahaya lilin nungguin Roh Kudus datang, banyak baca, buka wawasan.
Kalo modal cuman IMAN doang.....Tai Kotok (Tai Ayam) bisa sajah dikatakan KUEH COKLAT, karena warnanya sama, lain halnya kalo Otak dan Indera lain dipake, pasti bisa dibedain, mana TAI KOTOK...mana KUEH COKLAT

mang odoy wrote:Jiahhhh...belon ngerti rupanya....he he he

mang odoy wrote:
Dari hasil studi diatas.....ada beberapa hal yang harus anda pertimbangkan.

Pertama :
Silahkan anda mencoba untuk memperaktekkan 2 adegan berikut :
1. Kedua Tangan Terbentang ke kiri dan kanan.
2. Kedua tangan DIRAPATKAN KE ATAS dengan posisi ada dibelakang kepala.

Pada posisi nomer satu.....maka anda akan merasakan bahwa anda tidak merasa kesulitan sama sekali dalam bernafas. Lain halnya ketika anda coba yang nomer 2...maka anda akan merasa kesulitan bernafas karena posisi paru paru agak terangkat.

Kedua :
Dari hasil percobaan posisi tangan seperti di point pertama....kita korelasikan dengan KRONOLOGIS di Kitab Kanon ketika Yesus dan 2 Preman Pasar dieksekusi.

a. 2 Preman Pasar LANGSUNG MOKAT, ketika kakinya DIPATAHKAN
b. SEKETIKA...KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR...dari Lambung Yesus yang ditusuk oleh Prajurit Romawi.

Nah...OPERAN dari saya mah..segitu aja dulu...pelan pelann...biar ASSYIKKK....

mang odoy wrote:"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

mang odoy wrote:
Dari hasil studi diatas.....ada beberapa hal yang harus anda pertimbangkan.

Pertama :
Silahkan anda mencoba untuk memperaktekkan 2 adegan berikut :
1. Kedua Tangan Terbentang ke kiri dan kanan.
2. Kedua tangan DIRAPATKAN KE ATAS dengan posisi ada dibelakang kepala.

Pada posisi nomer satu.....maka anda akan merasakan bahwa anda tidak merasa kesulitan sama sekali dalam bernafas. Lain halnya ketika anda coba yang nomer 2...maka anda akan merasa kesulitan bernafas karena posisi paru paru agak terangkat.

Kedua :
Dari hasil percobaan posisi tangan seperti di point pertama....kita korelasikan dengan KRONOLOGIS di Kitab Kanon ketika Yesus dan 2 Preman Pasar dieksekusi.

a. 2 Preman Pasar LANGSUNG MOKAT, ketika kakinya DIPATAHKAN
b. SEKETIKA...KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR...dari Lambung Yesus yang ditusuk oleh Prajurit Romawi.

Nah...OPERAN dari saya mah..segitu aja dulu...pelan pelann...biar ASSYIKKK....

1. posisi manapun, grafitasi bumi akan menggelantungkan tubuh sehingga menyulitkan bernafas karena paru-paru akan sangat tertekan

MO :

he he he...mulai dah GELAGAPAN.....
Okeh kita bahas satu satu lagi..

1. POSISI DENGAN TANGAN TERBENTANG

Posisi ini adalah posisi yang DIYAKINI oleh Kristen Trinitas pun begitu juga Muslim Faham Stuntmen....anda bilang Grafitasi Bumi dengan posisi ini akan menyulitkan bernafas ...???? Yang bener nih...katanya mo pake AKAL SEHAT dan nunjukkin ke saya gimana cara make akal sehat...?????? he he he ....
Makanya silahkan praktekkan, dan rasakan sendiri, bahwa dengan posisi tangan terbentang, sedikitpun kita tidak merasakan kesulitan bernafas.
Anda tau...??? di Philipina....kegitan niru niru eksekusi Yesus ini diadakan setiap tahun..dan si Volunteer...dengan tangan terbentang dipaku..tapi setelah beberapa jam...doski masih bisa ngeroko walo dengan tangan terbentang.....

Cek disini kalo perlu bukti...


http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bcrucifixion+in+Philippines&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OW3eTsv-HIH-ggfA7cCCBg&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=612

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGe-DkDPHR4

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-22/news/29480743_1_ruben-enaje-ching-pangilinan-philippines

Sampe sekarang pun...belum pernah ada yang MOKAT dalam peristiwa ini.....ini menandakan posisi eksekusi dengan posisi begini, sama sekali tidak membuat si terhukum MATI SEKETIKA walowpun kedua kaki dipatahkan sekalipun, seperti yang dialami oleh kedua Preman yang bareng dieksekusi oleh Yesus.


2. preman tentu secara fisik lebih kuat, sehingga ia belum mati, Yesus sudah mati sebelum kaki dipatahkan (yang tujuannya untuk memastikan kematian), prajurit profesuonal yang sudah memastikannya mati sehingga tidak perlu lagi mematahkan kakinya

MO :
Inilah kekeliruan kalian...Yesus sering kali digambarkan sebagai lelaki yang GEMULAI, LEMAH, kaya BENCONG....ini keliru pak....Yesus ini orang Yahudi yang rata rata berbadan TEGAP dan GAGAH....kerjaannya beliaw ini dakwah kemana mana, dan yang namanya medan di daerah Israel, (saya pernah nginjakkin kaki disana makanya saya tau persis bagaimana keadaan medan disana) itu luar biasa terjalnya, secara logis ini akan membentuk fisik Yesus jadi Kuat Perkasa, dan bukan KELIMIS KAYA BENCONG dengan rambut panjang a'la Curt Cobain nya Group NIRVANA..... ini yang salah kaprah.
Dengan kondisi fisik Yesus seperti pendapat saya...tentu saja, cuman tangan dipaku dan itu dalam waktu hanya 3 JAM.....jauh ke kata MOKAT.

soal darah dan air, itu cairan kemerahan yang keluar dari lambunga yang teburai, so pasti karena posisi tubuhnya terganung pada kayu salib

MO :

He he he...GELAGAPAN lagi nih.....darimana tuh pendapat LAMBUNG YANG TERBURAI...???? wkwkwkwkwkwk
Inget pak....prajurit Romawi menusuk lambung Yesus..itu bukan dalam rangka DUEL satu lawan satu...tapi si prajurit hanya menusuk lambungnya..
Yang jadi masalah.....adalah....ketika si prajurit nusuk lambung Yesus..SEGERA KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR....
Ini ayatnya..

Yohanes 19:34 tetapi seorang dari antara prajurit itu menikam lambung-Nya dengan tombak, dan segera mengalir keluar darah dan air.

Ayat ini sebenernya KUNCI dari SELAMATNYA Yesus dari MAUT...dan ini erat sekali dengan SKENARIO PILATUS dalam rangka menyelamatkan Yesus....(akan saya bahas panjang lebar nantinya)

JN-SeJenis Tomat wrote:

mang odoy wrote:"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

nggak maouuu,,,, nggak maouu,,,,, nggak maou,,,,,,,,,

pokoknya g mooooo,,,,, yang lain,,,
pokoknya salib,,,, salib,,, salib,,,,,,,,,,

mang odoy wrote:1. POSISI DENGAN TANGAN TERBENTANG

Posisi ini adalah posisi yang DIYAKINI oleh Kristen Trinitas pun begitu juga Muslim Faham Stuntmen....anda bilang Grafitasi Bumi dengan posisi ini akan menyulitkan bernafas ...???? Yang bener nih...katanya mo pake AKAL SEHAT dan nunjukkin ke saya gimana cara make akal sehat...?????? he he he ....
Makanya silahkan praktekkan, dan rasakan sendiri, bahwa dengan posisi tangan terbentang, sedikitpun kita tidak merasakan kesulitan bernafas.
Anda tau...??? di Philipina....kegitan niru niru eksekusi Yesus ini diadakan setiap tahun..dan si Volunteer...dengan tangan terbentang dipaku..tapi setelah beberapa jam...doski masih bisa ngeroko walo dengan tangan terbentang.....

Cek disini kalo perlu bukti...
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bcrucifixion+in+Philippines&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OW3eTsv-HIH-ggfA7cCCBg&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=612
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGe-DkDPHR4
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-22/news/29480743_1_ruben-enaje-ching-pangilinan-philippines

mang odoy wrote:Sampe sekarang pun...belum pernah ada yang MOKAT dalam peristiwa ini.....ini menandakan posisi eksekusi dengan posisi begini, sama sekali tidak membuat si terhukum MATI SEKETIKA walowpun kedua kaki dipatahkan sekalipun, seperti yang dialami oleh kedua Preman yang bareng dieksekusi oleh Yesus.

mang odoy wrote:O :
Inilah kekeliruan kalian...Yesus sering kali digambarkan sebagai lelaki yang GEMULAI, LEMAH, kaya BENCONG....ini keliru pak....Yesus ini orang Yahudi yang rata rata berbadan TEGAP dan GAGAH....kerjaannya beliaw ini dakwah kemana mana, dan yang namanya medan di daerah Israel, (saya pernah nginjakkin kaki disana makanya saya tau persis bagaimana keadaan medan disana) itu luar biasa terjalnya, secara logis ini akan membentuk fisik Yesus jadi Kuat Perkasa, dan bukan KELIMIS KAYA BENCONG dengan rambut panjang a'la Curt Cobain nya Group NIRVANA..... ini yang salah kaprah.
Dengan kondisi fisik Yesus seperti pendapat saya...tentu saja, cuman tangan dipaku dan itu dalam waktu hanya 3 JAM.....jauh ke kata MOKAT.

mang odoy wrote:He he he...GELAGAPAN lagi nih.....darimana tuh pendapat LAMBUNG YANG TERBURAI...???? wkwkwkwkwkwk
Inget pak....prajurit Romawi menusuk lambung Yesus..itu bukan dalam rangka DUEL satu lawan satu...tapi si prajurit hanya menusuk lambungnya..
Yang jadi masalah.....adalah....ketika si prajurit nusuk lambung Yesus..SEGERA KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR....
Ini ayatnya..

Yohanes 19:34 tetapi seorang dari antara prajurit itu menikam lambung-Nya dengan tombak, dan segera mengalir keluar darah dan air.

Ayat ini sebenernya KUNCI dari SELAMATNYA Yesus dari MAUT...dan ini erat sekali dengan SKENARIO PILATUS dalam rangka menyelamatkan Yesus....(akan saya bahas panjang lebar nantinya)

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

JN-SeJenis Tomat wrote:

mang odoy wrote:"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

nggak maouuu,,,, nggak maouu,,,,, nggak maou,,,,,,,,,

pokoknya g mooooo,,,,, yang lain,,,
pokoknya salib,,,, salib,,, salib,,,,,,,,,,

itu pertanyaan untuk muslim sebebenarnya
- lha lambangnya apa? terus kenapa muhammad malah bilang 'salib'?

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

mang odoy wrote:1. POSISI DENGAN TANGAN TERBENTANG

Posisi ini adalah posisi yang DIYAKINI oleh Kristen Trinitas pun begitu juga Muslim Faham Stuntmen....anda bilang Grafitasi Bumi dengan posisi ini akan menyulitkan bernafas ...???? Yang bener nih...katanya mo pake AKAL SEHAT dan nunjukkin ke saya gimana cara make akal sehat...?????? he he he ....
Makanya silahkan praktekkan, dan rasakan sendiri, bahwa dengan posisi tangan terbentang, sedikitpun kita tidak merasakan kesulitan bernafas.
Anda tau...??? di Philipina....kegitan niru niru eksekusi Yesus ini diadakan setiap tahun..dan si Volunteer...dengan tangan terbentang dipaku..tapi setelah beberapa jam...doski masih bisa ngeroko walo dengan tangan terbentang.....

Cek disini kalo perlu bukti...
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2Bcrucifixion+in+Philippines&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OW3eTsv-HIH-ggfA7cCCBg&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=612
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGe-DkDPHR4
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-22/news/29480743_1_ruben-enaje-ching-pangilinan-philippines

kamu aja yang praktek, kan katamu tidak akan mati
kamu tidak tidur semalaman, berjalan kesana-kemari, pagi dinihari ditagnkap, diadili kian kemari sampai pagi menjelang siang, lalu diarak menuju bukit sambil memanggul salib yang peratnya 70an kg, diperjalanan disiksacambuk berkait, dimahkotai duri, lalu disalib/dipantek berjam-jam di terik matahari, diberi anggur asam dan lambungnya ditombak.. silakan kamu coba!! di pilipina hanya simbolis/rekonstruksi tidak riil seperti kejadian sebenarnya... berani coba?? di pantek/dipentang tangannya dengan menahan berat tubuh 70an kg jelas akan menggelayut menekan ke bawah, paru-paru jelas akan tertekan hebat..

MO :

Inti dari rekonstruksi di Philipina adalah bahwa dengan posisi TANGAN TERBENTANG.....PERNAFASAN TIDAK TERGANGGU SAMA SEKALI..
Mengenai kronologis eksekusi Yesus seperti yang anda katakan diatas....sama sekali TIDAK MENJAMIN kalo Yesus terus MATI karena semua itu. Ingat,.....!!! Yesus bukan LELAKI LEBAY BIN BENCONG seperti yang sering digambarkan oleh Kristen Trinitas....dia ini Lelaki tangguh...lagian mana ada orang Yahudi lebay kaya bencong seperti foto Yesus di Gereja anda....ngarang aja kalian ini....

Ketika nangkring di tiang hukuman....dibawah kaki Yesus itu dipasang TUMPUAN....jadi tidak benar kalo cuman kakinya yang paku. Masalah kakinya dipaku pun ini masih kontroversi, karena ketika Yesus menampakkan dirinya pasca eksekusi ke murid muridnya, Thomas yang penasaran dan ragu ragu kalo itu Yesus meminta bukti...dan bukti yang diberikan Yesus hanyalah LUKA DITANGAN DAN DILAMBUNG....!!! ingat ituuu.....!!!!

Dengan fisik kuat seperti bukti yang pernah saya katakan....siksaan segitu mah wajar buat lelaki macam Yesus...dan jauh dari KEMATIAN.

mang odoy wrote:Sampe sekarang pun...belum pernah ada yang MOKAT dalam peristiwa ini.....ini menandakan posisi eksekusi dengan posisi begini, sama sekali tidak membuat si terhukum MATI SEKETIKA walowpun kedua kaki dipatahkan sekalipun, seperti yang dialami oleh kedua Preman yang bareng dieksekusi oleh Yesus.

tidak ada yang pernah menjalani persis yang dialami Yesus, bahkan ke dua penjahat yang disalib bersamanya, mereka diambil dari penjara, sebelumnya bisa tidur dan cukup makan, di perjalanan juga tidak disiksa seperti yang Yesus alami.. pematahan tulang kaki untuk memastikan kematian, itu tidak dilakukan atas Yesus karena prajurit profesional sudah memastikannya mati (selain nubuatnya memang demikian)

MO :

Kedua preman yang dieksekusi bersama Yesus MATI SEKETIKA setelah kedua kakinya dipatahkan...kenapa ini...????
Ini dikarenakan....mereka kehilangan TUMPUAN, dengan posisi seperti bukti yang seabreg dari kata STAUROS yang saya suguhkan kehadapan paduka segorowedi, dan andapun cuman bisa MELONGOO ngotot dengna IMAN....
Posisi si Preman dengan kedua tangan keatas dan berada dibelakang kepala....akan mengalami kesulitan bernafas....ketika dipatahkan kedua kakinya...selain menahan rasa sakit yang amat sangat....juga kehilangan TUMPUAN dan yang lebih parah lagi.....kondisi paru paru yang terjepit dan berujung dengan berhentinya detakan jantung...walhasil...MOKAT SEKETIKA.

Bagaimana dengan Yesus.....????
Yesus sama sekali tidak mengalami PEMATAHAN TULANG.....dan hal ini memberikan keleluasaan bagi dirinya untuk bisa bernafas walowpun agak kesulitan. Pemberian minuman asam dan penusukan pada lambungnya...sebenernya ini adalah SKENARIO dari Pilatus yang pada dasarnya menaruh simpati pada Yesus dan ingin menyelematkannya.
Bagaimana ini sebenernya...???
Saya akan jelaskan secara detail ntar...
Tarik ulur dulu...biar ASSYIKKK.... :3:

Mau ngomongin NUBUAT...????? NUBUAT yang mana om..???
Nubuat yang diomongi Yesus sebelum eksekusi terjadi pada dirinya adalah NUBUAT NABI YUNUS...
Bagaimana sebelum Nabi Yunus dicemplungin ke laut......??? DALAM KEADAAN HIDUP.
Bagaimana keadaan Nabi Yunus selama ada DIPERUT IKAN.....???DALAM KEADAAN HIDUP
Bagaimana keadaan Nabi Yunus setelah dimuntahkan dari PERUT IKAN...?? DALAM KEADAAN HIDUP

HIDUP...HIDUP....HIDUP.. begitulah keadaan Nabi Yunus..

DAN ITU YANG TERJADI PADA DIRI YESUS..!!!

mang odoy wrote:O :
Inilah kekeliruan kalian...Yesus sering kali digambarkan sebagai lelaki yang GEMULAI, LEMAH, kaya BENCONG....ini keliru pak....Yesus ini orang Yahudi yang rata rata berbadan TEGAP dan GAGAH....kerjaannya beliaw ini dakwah kemana mana, dan yang namanya medan di daerah Israel, (saya pernah nginjakkin kaki disana makanya saya tau persis bagaimana keadaan medan disana) itu luar biasa terjalnya, secara logis ini akan membentuk fisik Yesus jadi Kuat Perkasa, dan bukan KELIMIS KAYA BENCONG dengan rambut panjang a'la Curt Cobain nya Group NIRVANA..... ini yang salah kaprah.
Dengan kondisi fisik Yesus seperti pendapat saya...tentu saja, cuman tangan dipaku dan itu dalam waktu hanya 3 JAM.....jauh ke kata MOKAT.

penjahatnya kan juga orang yahudi? itu perbandingannya..
padaha kondisi sebelum penyaliban dan selama menuju penyaliban beda, Yesus tidak tidur semalaman, dinihari ditangkap, diadili kian-kemari sampai pagi dan menjelang siang di arak memikul salibnya menuju bukit, disiksa sepanjang perjalanan.. kondisi yang tidak dialami para penjahat

MO :

Yang menjadi POINT utamanya kan PEMATAHAN TULANG pak....

Jadi bukan masalah apakah sebelum dieksekusi...semisal kalo si Preman mah bisa makan minum sesuai 4 sehat 5 sempurna dan tidur cukup sesuai anjuran dokter....sedang Yesus begadang semalaman.....
Katanya nyuruh saya make AKAL SEHAT.....pake dong tu punya dikau...jangan cuman ngasih saran doang....wkwkwkwkwkwk...

mang odoy wrote:He he he...GELAGAPAN lagi nih.....darimana tuh pendapat LAMBUNG YANG TERBURAI...???? wkwkwkwkwkwk
Inget pak....prajurit Romawi menusuk lambung Yesus..itu bukan dalam rangka DUEL satu lawan satu...tapi si prajurit hanya menusuk lambungnya..
Yang jadi masalah.....adalah....ketika si prajurit nusuk lambung Yesus..SEGERA KELUAR DARAH DAN AIR....
Ini ayatnya..

Yohanes 19:34 tetapi seorang dari antara prajurit itu menikam lambung-Nya dengan tombak, dan segera mengalir keluar darah dan air.

Ayat ini sebenernya KUNCI dari SELAMATNYA Yesus dari MAUT...dan ini erat sekali dengan SKENARIO PILATUS dalam rangka menyelamatkan Yesus....(akan saya bahas panjang lebar nantinya)

posisi mati tergantung, lalu lambung ditombak pasti akan keluar darah campur air (cairan kemerahan), kamu ma coba?.. skenario dari hongkong!

MO :

Dalam ayat diatas dinyatakan...SEGERA MENGALIR DARAH DAN AIR..
Ini tandanya apa pak....????
Emang kalo JANTUNG DAH PENSIUN....hal itu bisa terjadi...???
Katanya nyuruh saya pake AKAL SEHAT....????

mang odoy wrote:
Pan sudah saya BANTAH HABIS HABISAN pak...???

Ibn Manzur pengarang Kitab Lisan Al-Arabi...menemukan bahwa kata SALIB yang berakar kata pada SHAD LAM BA itu tidak ada KAITANNYA SAMA SEKALI dengan masalah silang menyilang atowpun kayu lurus sekalipun.....

Hadist itu sekelas Kitab Kanonik....disusunnyapun jauh setelah wafatnya beliow...kemungkinan penyusupan penyusupan faham dari luar akan sangat terbuka lebar.....

Di Al-Quran pun....yang notabene tiap ayatnya diterima beliow.....kata SALIB yang percis itu ada di kisah Nabi Musa as seperti yang telah saya posting didepan...kalimatnya berbunyi...USALLIB...dan itu bukan KATA BENDA melainkan KATA KERJA....ada lagi yang mirip bunyinya yaitu SULBI...itupun bukan PALANG atow LURUS tapi artinya TULANG ...nha lhoooo...?????

Salah satu sifat Nabi adalah PINTAR dan MUSTAHIL BODOH....
Kalow Ibn Manzur aja yang cuman level manusia biasa menemukan bahwa akar kata SHAD LAM BA itu tidak ada kaitannya dengan BENTUK PALANG ATOW LURUS...
Adalah MUSTAHIL manusia mulia sekelas Nabi Muhammad tidak tau bahasa Ibu sendiri dalam hal ini tata bahasa Arab yang notabene adalah Bahasa Ibu dari Al-Quran sendiri...

Makanya...silahkan jawab pertanyaan saya yang ini...

"APAKAH UMAT KRISTEN DI JAZIRAH ARAB ....SEBELUM KEDATANGAN MUHAMMAD DAN AL-QURAN SUDAH MENAMAKAN LAMBANG AGAMA MEREKA DENGAN SEBUTAN "SALIB"....????? MANA BUKTI SEJARAHNYA....???"

hayooo...kalo emang anda CUKUP CERDAS...bawa kesini bukti sejarahnya...!!!