Ditemukan 7 data yang cocok

bisakah kafir yang baik masuk surga?

dharma_senapati wrote:

Para bhikkhu, berdasarkan itu, maka mahluk pertama yang terlahir di alam Brahma berpendapat : “Saya Brahma, Maha Brahma, Maha Agung, Maha Kuasa, MahaTahu, Penguasa, Tuan Dari Semua, Pembuat, Pencipta, Maha Tinggi, Penentu tempat bagi semua mahluk, asal mula kehidupan, Bapa dari ynag telah ada dan yang akanada. Semua mahluk ini adalah ciptaanku”.

kalimat diatas menjelaskan bhw mahabrahma (yg dianggap tuhan) memiliki pandangan keliru ttg tuhan-nonpersonal tapi kl ditinjau dr sisi tuhan-personal (tuhan samawi) memang mirip bahkan sama

http://www.laskarislam.com/t9565p75-tuhan-tidak-mungkin-menciptakan-manusia#195965

Namun para dewa dengan gegabah berani memastikan bahwa Maha-Brahma sanggup menjawab pertanyaan itu. Selang beberapa saat kemudian , Maha-Brahma menampakan diri dan Sang Bhikkhu pun mengajukan pertanyaan padanya.

Jawaban yang diperolehnya hanya semata-mata berupa penegasan penuh percaya diri bahwa alam semesta adalah ciptaannya. Setelah tiga kali memberikan jawaban yang sama, Maha-Brahma menarik Bhikkhu tersebut ke satu sisi dan berkata bahwa dia tidak dapat mengecewakan para pengikutnya dengan mengakui kelemahannya bahwa ia tidak tahu jawaban dari pertanyaannya. Maha-Brahma kemudian memberikan saran bahwa pilihan terbaik bagi Bhikkhu tersebut adalah pergi mengunjungi Sang Buddha, yang pasti mengetahui jawaban atas pertanyaan tersebut.

Demikianlah sosok yang diyakini sebagai “Maha-Pencipta”, Maha-Brahma, ini masih lebih rendah tingkatannya apabila dibandingkan dengan Buddha. Sekalipun mempunyai kebanggaan yang berlebihan akan dirinya , namun “Maha-Dewa” ini merupakan sesosok makhluk yang baik hati dan welas asih (ingat empat sifat luhur, Brahmavihara). Ia adalah “Maha-Dewa-Yang-Penuh-Welas Asih “ yang menyangka dirinya sebagai “Maha-Pencipta”, “Bapa-Semua-Makhluk”.

Yesus Keturunan Yahudi atau Bangsa Yahudi ??

dee-nee wrote:

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

dee-nee wrote:

btw .. yang ini dijawab juga mas

Oh ya satu pertanyaan lagi (khususnya untuk para zombie) tentang artikel rabbi diatas >>> bila Rabbi Tovia Singer minta kristen mendukung Israel State ....

misalnya dia bilang "eh kristen ... ajaran penuh doktrin yang ga sesuai dengan iman yahudi termasuk tentang Yesus yang ga ada penting2nya buat kita ... saya minta kalian dukung Israel State dong ... supaya Kerajaan Israel era Daud bisa berdiri lagi dan Messiah ala yahudi juga datang .... tapi yang pasti sih bukan Messiah kalian yang datang"

kalian para zombie masih mau dukung ga ??

disini saya cuma mau membuktikan bahwa TIDAK ADA YAHUDI YANG BILANG YESUS IS KETURUNAN YAHUDI atau YESUS ANAK DAUD SECARA GENETIS

so ... apa yang kalian harapkan dari umat yahudi ini terkait keimanan kristen kalian ??

zombie mati2an membela zionist pake Taurat .... toh majikan para zombie juga ga ngurusin Messiah kalian sendiri

soal negara, silakan aja..
silakan ikuti dan penuhi etika standard politik internasional
kalau soal agama, itu pilihan bebas masing-masing
apa masalahnya?

jadi kalau Rabbi Tovia Singer minta kristen mendukung Israel State >>> tetap dukung terus dong ya ... zombie selalu siap sedia memenuhi permintaan si Rabbi >>> gitu ya mas ??

btw pendirian israel state masih ada hubungannya dengan kedatangan Messiah dan akhir jaman ga nih ??
yahudi masih bangsa pilihan ga ??
tanah itu masih untuk bangsa yang ga mau menerima Yesus sebagai Messiah ga ??

merah : jadi point-nya ... bagi zombie urusan agama itu pilihan bebas ... tapi kalo nyium dengkul majikan itu hukumnya wajib

gitu ya mas ??

dee-nee wrote:Source tambahan

http://outreachjudaism.org/marys-genealogy/

Mary’s Genealogy - Garis Leluhur Maria

Question:
I am curious to know what happened during the 400 years or so between the Torah and the New Testament. Also, did the Jews have a king during Roman Era at all, and what was the function of the Sanhedrin? Why do they say Jesus was the king of the Jews? To which Jews are they referring? Also, as far as the line of David goes, can we trace Mary and Joseph back to David? Were they even from any tribe at all?

Saya ingin tahu apa yang terjadi selama 400 tahun atau lebih antara Taurat dan Perjanjian Baru. Termasuk, apakah orang Yahudi pernah memiliki raja selama Era Romawi, dan apa fungsi dari Sanhedrin? Mengapa mereka mengatakan Yesus adalah raja orang Yahudi? Untuk orang Yahudi mana yang mereka maksud? Juga, sepanjang garis keturunan David, bisakah kita melacak Maria dan Yusuf terkait (garis keturunan) David? Atau mereka bahkan bukan dari suku apapun?

Answer:

I am going to assume that in your first question you are asking whether there was a legitimate Davidic king over the Jewish people during the Second Temple period. If this is in fact your question, the answer is no. Although there was a royal crown held by both the dynasty of the Hasmoneans and Herod, they were not legitimately anointed kings over the Jewish people, because they were not heirs to the Davidic throne. Rather, they were priests descendants from the tribe of Levi, not Judah.

Saya asumsikan pertanyaan pertama Anda, apakah ada seorang raja keturunan Daud yang sah atas orang-orang Yahudi selama periode Bait Suci Kedua. Jika ini pertanyaan Anda, jawabannya adalah tidak. Meskipun mahkota kerajaan memang diberikan oleh kedua dinasti dari Hasmoni dan Herodes, mereka tidak sah diurapi sebagai raja atas orang-orang Yahudi, karena mereka tidak ahli waris takhta Daud. Sebaliknya, mereka adalah imam keturunan dari suku Lewi, bukan dari suku Judah.

The answer to your second question is the Sanhedrin was the Jewish court system in the land of Israel, not the seat of a king.

Jawaban untuk pertanyaan kedua adalah Sanhedrin adalah sistem pengadilan Yahudi di tanah Israel, bukan untuk kedudukan kursi raja.

With regard to your third question, when Christians refer to Jesus as king of the Jews, they are asserting, in essence that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. This claim, however, is self-defeating because it undermines the Christian claim that Jesus was miraculously conceived of a virgin.

Berkenaan dengan pertanyaan ketiga Anda, ketika umat Kristen menyebut Yesus sebagai raja orang Yahudi, mereka menegaskan, bahwa pada intinya Yesus adalah Mesias, dan pewaris terakhir untuk takhta Daud. Klaim ini, pada dasarnya merugikan diri sendiri karena melemahkan klaim Kristen bahwa Yesus secara ajaib dikandung dari seorang perawan.

According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim, however, completely shatters the core Christian claim that Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s throne and king of the Jews. The virgin birth myth undermines this fundamental Church teaching because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father, never the mother. This principle is clearly stated in the Torah:

(Numbers 1:18) And on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head.

Menurut Matius dan Lukas, Yesus dilahirkan dari seorang perawan. Klaim ini, pada dasarnya benar-benar meruntuhkan klaim Kristen bahwa Yesus adalah pewaris sah takhta Daud dan raja orang Yahudi. Mitos kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan melemahkan ajaran Gereja karena garis keturunan suku hanya ditelusuri melalui ayah seseorang, tidak pernah ibu. Prinsip ini jelas dinyatakan dalam Taurat:

(Bilangan 1:18) dan pada tanggal satu bulan yang kedua mereka menyuruh segenap umat berkumpul. Kemudian silsilah orang-orang Israel disusun menurut kaum-kaum yang ada dalam setiap suku mereka, sedang nama-nama mereka yang berumur dua puluh tahun ke atas dicatat orang demi orang,

Catatan dini : ada yang aneh dengan terjemahan dan sekian banyak versi alkitab tentang ayat Bil 1:18 ini >>> jadi saya simpen dulu setelah terjemahan selesai

lanjut ....

According to Christian teachings, Jesus had only a human Jewish mother, and was not related to Joseph. A human Jewish father, however is essential for anyone to be a legitimate heir to the throne of David, which the real messiah will be.

Menurut ajaran Kristen, Yesus hanya punya ibu manusia (dari keturunan) Yahudi, dan tidak terkait (secara genetis) dengan Yusuf. Sementara, seorang ayah Yahudi, sangat penting bagi siapa saja untuk menjadi pewaris sah tahta Daud, yang pada akhirnya disebut Messiah sebenarnya

With regard to your final question, Mary’s genealogy is completely irrelevant to Jesus’ supposed lineage to King David. For good reason, nowhere in the New Testament is Mary’s genealogy recorded. As mentioned above, matrilineal ancestry is irrelevant to tribe identification. Both the first chapter of Matthew and in the third chapter of Luke contain a putative genealogy of Joseph alone. Although these two genealogies completely contradict each other, neither suggests that Mary was a descendant of king of David. Joseph’s genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus because according to two out of four Gospels claim that Joseph was not Jesus’ father. The author of the Book of Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, knows nothing of a virgin birth, and accordingly, begins his book with the baptism of Jesus. The Book of John contains no infancy narrative.

Berkenaan dengan pertanyaan terakhir Anda, garis leluhur Maria benar-benar tidak relevan (bila dikaitkan) dengan silsilah Yesus (lalu dianggap sebagai) Raja Daud. Karena tidak ada cacatan dalam Perjanjian Baru terkait silsilah Maria. Seperti disebutkan di atas, keturunan matrilineal tidak relevan dengan identifikasi suku. Kedua bab pertama dari Matius dan dalam bab ketiga dari Lukas mengandung (dugaan) hanya dari silsilah Yusuf. Meskipun dua silsilah ini bertentangan satu sama lain, (tetap) tidak menunjukkan bahwa Maria adalah keturunan raja Daud. Silsilah Yusuf pun tidak relevan dengan Yesus karena dua dari empat Injil (Matius dan Lukas) mengklaim bahwa Yusuf bukan ayah Yesus. Penulis Kitab Markus, kitab awal dari keempat Injil, tidak tahu apa-apa tentang kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan, dan memulai bukunya dengan baptisan Yesus. Sementara Kitab Yohanes tidak memuat narasi tentang kelahiran seorang bayi.

It should be noted that both Catholic and Protestant traditions hold that whereas Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph, Luke’s genealogy is of Mary. Although this tradition is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, it was a necessary doctrine for the Church to adopt.

Perlu dicatat bahwa kedua tradisi Katolik dan Protestan memegang silsilah Matius (dari garis) Yusuf, silsilah Lukas (dari garis) Maria. Meskipun tradisi ini tidak ditemukan dalam Perjanjian Baru, (tapi hal) itu adalah doktrin yang penting bagi Gereja untuk diadopsi.

Nowhere in the third Gospel, or in the entire New Testament, for that matter, is there a claim that Mary was a descendant of the House of David. On the contrary, Luke plainly asserts that it is Joseph who was from the House of David, not Mary.

(Luke 1:27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Tidak ada dalam Injil ketiga, atau di seluruh Perjanjian Baru yang meng-klaim Maria adalah keturunan dari House of David. Sebaliknya, Lukas jelas menegaskan bahwa Yusuf lah yang berasal dari House of David, bukan Maria

(Lukas 1:27) kepada seorang perawan yang bertunangan dengan seorang bernama Yusuf dari keluarga Daud; nama perawan itu Maria.

Catatan dini : jadi buat temen2 kristener yang bilang Lukas selalu bicara garis keturunan dari sisi Maria (ibu), pada dasarnya tidak tepat ... karena di Lukas 1:27 ini saja jelas tersebut yang menjadi keluarga Daud adalah Yusuf

lanjut ....

In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest, placing her in the tribe of Levi, not David’s tribe of Judah. Moreover, in Luke 2:4, the author writes that the reason it was necessary for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem was because it was Joseph, not Mary, who was from the House of David.

(Luke 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David.

Bahkan, Lukas mengklaim bahwa Maria adalah sepupu Elizabeth, yang menurut-nya (Lukas) adalah keturunan Imam Besar Harun , hingga menempatkan Maria sebagai suku Lewi, bukan suku David Yehuda. Selain itu, dalam Lukas 2: 4, penulis menyebutkan bahwa alasan Yusuf dan Maria harus kembali ke Betlehem karena untuk kepentingan Yusuf, yang dari House of David, bukan (untuk kepentingan) Maria

(Lukas 2:4) Demikian juga Yusuf pergi dari kota Nazaret di Galilea ke Yudea, ke kota Daud yang bernama Betlehem, --karena ia berasal dari keluarga dan keturunan Daud--[/color]

Catatan dini : mungkin bisa saya tulis perikop diatasnya

2:1 Pada waktu itu Kaisar Agustus mengeluarkan suatu perintah, menyuruh mendaftarkan semua orang di seluruh dunia.
2:2 Inilah pendaftaran yang pertama kali diadakan sewaktu Kirenius menjadi wali negeri di Siria.
2:3 Maka pergilah semua orang mendaftarkan diri, masing-masing di kotanya sendiri.
2:4 Demikian juga Yusuf pergi dari kota Nazaret di Galilea ke Yudea, ke kota Daud yang bernama Betlehem, --karena ia berasal dari keluarga dan keturunan Daud--
2:5 supaya didaftarkan bersama-sama dengan Maria, tunangannya, yang sedang mengandung.

So ... dari sini saja Lukas jelas menegaskan bahwa yang menjadi keturunan Daud adalah Yusuf ... bukan Maria

lanjut ...

There are a number of reasons why the Church sought to claim that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus is traced through Mary’s line. To begin with, Paul claims in Romans 1:3 that Jesus was from the seed of David after the flesh. This has always been understood to mean that Paul was claiming that King David was the biological ancestor of Jesus. At the time when Paul penned the Book of Romans, he was completely unaware that Christendom would eventually claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. Consequently, the Church desperately needed Paul’s statement to correlate with the virgin-birth story.

Ada sejumlah alasan mengapa Gereja berusaha mengklaim bahwa silsilah Lukas tentang Yesus ditelusuri melalui garis Maria. Dimulai dengan, Paulus yang mengklaim dalam Roma 1:3 bahwa Yesus berasal dari keturunan Daud menurut daging. Ini selalu dipahami bahwa Paulus mengklaim Raja Daud adalah leluhur biologis Yesus. Pada waktu Paulus menulis Kitab Roma, ia tidak menyadari bahwa Kristen akan mengklaim Yesus lahir dari seorang perawan. Akibatnya, Gereja sangat membutuhkan pernyataan Paulus untuk dikorelasikan dengan cerita kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan.

This dilemma was solved by the assertion that whereas Matthew’s genealogy of Jesus was traced through Joseph’s line, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus was through Mary’s lineage. In this way, Jesus could now be from the seed of David after the flesh through Luke’s genealogy. Likewise, establishing Mary’s lineage to King David, Luke’s genealogy ostensibly solves the problem of what to do with Romans 1:3 (Paul), and enables the Church to claim a physical link between Jesus and King David.

Dilema ini diselesaikan dengan pernyataan bahwa silsilah Matius (tentang leluhur) Yesus diambil melalui jalur Yusuf, (sementara) silsilah Lukas tentang Yesus melalui garis keturunan Maria. Dengan cara ini, Yesus bisa disebut keturunan Daud menurut daging melalui silsilah Lukas. Demikian juga, dengan menyebutkan garis keturunan Maria dari Raja Daud, silsilah Lukas seolah-olah bisa memecahkan masalah (kontradiksi) terkait Roma 1: 3 (Paulus), dan memungkinkan Gereja untuk mengklaim hubungan genetis antara Yesus dan Raja Daud.

Finally, it seeks to resolve an awkward discrepancy between the conflicting genealogies contained in the books of Matthew and Luke. Whereas in Matthew’s genealogy, Joseph’s father is Jacob,2 in Luke’s genealogy it is Heli.3 By claiming that Luke’s genealogy is of Mary, Heli becomes Mary’s father and Joseph’s father-in-law.

Akhirnya, (kristen) perlu menyelesaikan permasalahan terkait silsilah yang bertentangan antara kitab Matius dan Lukas. Pada silsilah Matius, ayah Yusuf adalah Yakub, sedangkan di silsilah Lukas itu Heli/Eli. Dengan mengklaim bahwa silsilah Lukas adalah Maria, Heli menjadi ayah Maria dan Yusuf ayah mertua.

Sadly, Christendom’s far-fetched resolution to the Gospel’s conflicting genealogies has satisfied the unlettered minds of billions of parishioners worldwide.

Sayangnya, resolusi terlalu mengada-ada ala Kristen terkait silsilah yang bertentangan (dengan) Injil telah memenuhi pikiran buta huruf miliaran umat di seluruh dunia.

by Rabbi Tovia Singer

Yesus Keturunan Yahudi atau Bangsa Yahudi ??

dee-nee wrote:

SEGOROWEDI wrote:

dee-nee wrote:

btw .. yang ini dijawab juga mas

Oh ya satu pertanyaan lagi (khususnya untuk para zombie) tentang artikel rabbi diatas >>> bila Rabbi Tovia Singer minta kristen mendukung Israel State ....

misalnya dia bilang "eh kristen ... ajaran penuh doktrin yang ga sesuai dengan iman yahudi termasuk tentang Yesus yang ga ada penting2nya buat kita  ... saya minta kalian dukung Israel State dong ... supaya Kerajaan Israel era Daud bisa berdiri lagi dan Messiah ala yahudi juga datang .... tapi yang pasti sih bukan Messiah kalian yang datang"

kalian para zombie masih mau dukung ga ??

disini saya cuma mau membuktikan bahwa TIDAK ADA YAHUDI YANG BILANG YESUS IS KETURUNAN YAHUDI atau YESUS ANAK DAUD SECARA GENETIS

so ... apa yang kalian harapkan dari umat yahudi ini terkait keimanan kristen kalian ??

zombie mati2an membela zionist pake Taurat .... toh majikan para zombie juga ga ngurusin Messiah kalian sendiri

soal negara, silakan aja..
silakan ikuti dan penuhi etika standard politik internasional
kalau soal agama, itu pilihan bebas masing-masing
apa masalahnya?

jadi kalau Rabbi Tovia Singer minta kristen mendukung Israel State >>> tetap dukung terus dong ya ... zombie selalu siap sedia memenuhi permintaan si Rabbi >>> gitu ya mas ??

btw pendirian israel state masih ada hubungannya dengan kedatangan Messiah dan akhir jaman ga nih ??
yahudi masih bangsa pilihan ga ??
tanah itu masih untuk bangsa yang ga mau menerima Yesus sebagai Messiah ga ??

merah : jadi point-nya ... bagi zombie urusan agama itu pilihan bebas ... tapi kalo nyium dengkul majikan itu hukumnya wajib

gitu ya mas ??

dee-nee wrote:Source tambahan

http://outreachjudaism.org/marys-genealogy/

Mary’s Genealogy - Garis Leluhur Maria

Question:
I am curious to know what happened during the 400 years or so between the Torah and the New Testament. Also, did the Jews have a king during Roman Era at all, and what was the function of the Sanhedrin? Why do they say Jesus was the king of the Jews? To which Jews are they referring? Also, as far as the line of David goes, can we trace Mary and Joseph back to David? Were they even from any tribe at all?

Saya ingin tahu apa yang terjadi selama 400 tahun atau lebih antara Taurat dan Perjanjian Baru. Termasuk, apakah orang Yahudi pernah memiliki raja selama Era Romawi, dan apa fungsi dari Sanhedrin? Mengapa mereka mengatakan Yesus adalah raja orang Yahudi? Untuk orang Yahudi mana yang mereka maksud? Juga, sepanjang garis keturunan David, bisakah kita melacak Maria dan Yusuf terkait (garis keturunan) David? Atau mereka bahkan bukan dari suku apapun?

Answer:

I am going to assume that in your first question you are asking whether there was a legitimate Davidic king over the Jewish people during the Second Temple period. If this is in fact your question, the answer is no. Although there was a royal crown held by both the dynasty of the Hasmoneans and Herod, they were not legitimately anointed kings over the Jewish people, because they were not heirs to the Davidic throne. Rather, they were priests descendants from the tribe of Levi, not Judah.

Saya asumsikan pertanyaan pertama Anda, apakah ada seorang raja keturunan Daud yang sah atas orang-orang Yahudi selama periode Bait Suci Kedua. Jika ini pertanyaan Anda, jawabannya adalah tidak. Meskipun mahkota kerajaan memang diberikan oleh kedua dinasti dari Hasmoni dan Herodes, mereka tidak sah diurapi sebagai raja atas orang-orang Yahudi, karena mereka tidak ahli waris takhta Daud. Sebaliknya, mereka adalah imam keturunan dari suku Lewi, bukan dari suku Judah.

The answer to your second question is the Sanhedrin was the Jewish court system in the land of Israel, not the seat of a king.

Jawaban untuk pertanyaan kedua adalah Sanhedrin adalah sistem pengadilan Yahudi di tanah Israel, bukan untuk kedudukan kursi raja.

With regard to your third question, when Christians refer to Jesus as king of the Jews, they are asserting, in essence that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. This claim, however, is self-defeating because it undermines the Christian claim that Jesus was miraculously conceived of a virgin.

Berkenaan dengan pertanyaan ketiga Anda, ketika umat Kristen menyebut Yesus sebagai raja orang Yahudi, mereka menegaskan, bahwa pada intinya Yesus adalah Mesias, dan pewaris terakhir untuk takhta Daud. Klaim ini, pada dasarnya merugikan diri sendiri karena melemahkan klaim Kristen bahwa Yesus secara ajaib dikandung dari seorang perawan.

According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim, however, completely shatters the core Christian claim that Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s throne and king of the Jews. The virgin birth myth undermines this fundamental Church teaching because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father, never the mother. This principle is clearly stated in the Torah:

(Numbers 1:18) And on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head.

Menurut Matius dan Lukas, Yesus dilahirkan dari seorang perawan. Klaim ini, pada dasarnya benar-benar meruntuhkan klaim Kristen bahwa Yesus adalah pewaris sah takhta Daud dan raja orang Yahudi. Mitos kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan melemahkan ajaran Gereja karena garis keturunan suku hanya ditelusuri melalui ayah seseorang, tidak pernah ibu. Prinsip ini jelas dinyatakan dalam Taurat:

(Bilangan 1:18) dan pada tanggal satu bulan yang kedua mereka menyuruh segenap umat berkumpul. Kemudian silsilah orang-orang Israel disusun menurut kaum-kaum yang ada dalam setiap suku mereka, sedang nama-nama mereka yang berumur dua puluh tahun ke atas dicatat orang demi orang,

Catatan dini : ada yang aneh dengan terjemahan dan sekian banyak versi alkitab tentang ayat Bil 1:18 ini >>> jadi saya simpen dulu setelah terjemahan selesai

lanjut ....

According to Christian teachings, Jesus had only a human Jewish mother, and was not related to Joseph. A human Jewish father, however is essential for anyone to be a legitimate heir to the throne of David, which the real messiah will be.

Menurut ajaran Kristen, Yesus hanya punya ibu manusia (dari keturunan) Yahudi, dan tidak terkait (secara genetis) dengan Yusuf. Sementara, seorang ayah Yahudi, sangat penting bagi siapa saja untuk menjadi pewaris sah tahta Daud, yang pada akhirnya disebut Messiah sebenarnya

With regard to your final question, Mary’s genealogy is completely irrelevant to Jesus’ supposed lineage to King David. For good reason, nowhere in the New Testament is Mary’s genealogy recorded. As mentioned above, matrilineal ancestry is irrelevant to tribe identification. Both the first chapter of Matthew and in the third chapter of Luke contain a putative genealogy of Joseph alone. Although these two genealogies completely contradict each other, neither suggests that Mary was a descendant of king of David. Joseph’s genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus because according to two out of four Gospels claim that Joseph was not Jesus’ father. The author of the Book of Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, knows nothing of a virgin birth, and accordingly, begins his book with the baptism of Jesus. The Book of John contains no infancy narrative.

Berkenaan dengan pertanyaan terakhir Anda, garis leluhur Maria  benar-benar tidak relevan (bila dikaitkan) dengan silsilah Yesus (lalu dianggap sebagai) Raja Daud. Karena tidak ada cacatan dalam Perjanjian Baru terkait silsilah Maria. Seperti disebutkan di atas, keturunan matrilineal tidak relevan dengan identifikasi suku. Kedua bab pertama dari Matius dan dalam bab ketiga dari Lukas mengandung (dugaan) hanya dari silsilah Yusuf. Meskipun dua silsilah ini bertentangan satu sama lain, (tetap) tidak menunjukkan bahwa Maria adalah keturunan raja Daud. Silsilah Yusuf pun tidak relevan dengan Yesus karena dua dari empat Injil (Matius dan Lukas) mengklaim bahwa Yusuf bukan ayah Yesus. Penulis Kitab Markus, kitab awal dari keempat Injil, tidak tahu apa-apa tentang kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan, dan memulai bukunya dengan baptisan Yesus. Sementara Kitab Yohanes tidak memuat narasi tentang kelahiran seorang bayi.

It should be noted that both Catholic and Protestant traditions hold that whereas Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph, Luke’s genealogy is of Mary. Although this tradition is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, it was a necessary doctrine for the Church to adopt.

Perlu dicatat bahwa kedua tradisi Katolik dan Protestan memegang silsilah Matius (dari garis) Yusuf, silsilah Lukas (dari garis) Maria. Meskipun tradisi ini tidak ditemukan dalam Perjanjian Baru, (tapi hal) itu adalah doktrin yang penting bagi Gereja untuk diadopsi.

Nowhere in the third Gospel, or in the entire New Testament, for that matter, is there a claim that Mary was a descendant of the House of David. On the contrary, Luke plainly asserts that it is Joseph who was from the House of David, not Mary.

(Luke 1:27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Tidak ada dalam Injil ketiga, atau di seluruh Perjanjian Baru yang meng-klaim Maria adalah keturunan dari House of David. Sebaliknya, Lukas jelas menegaskan bahwa Yusuf lah yang berasal dari House of David, bukan Maria

(Lukas 1:27) kepada seorang perawan yang bertunangan dengan seorang bernama Yusuf dari keluarga Daud; nama perawan itu Maria.

Catatan dini : jadi buat temen2 kristener yang bilang Lukas selalu bicara garis keturunan dari sisi Maria (ibu), pada dasarnya tidak tepat ... karena di Lukas 1:27 ini saja jelas tersebut yang menjadi keluarga Daud adalah Yusuf

lanjut ....

In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest, placing her in the tribe of Levi, not David’s tribe of Judah. Moreover, in Luke 2:4, the author writes that the reason it was necessary for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem was because it was Joseph, not Mary, who was from the House of David.

(Luke 2:4) And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David.

Bahkan, Lukas mengklaim bahwa Maria adalah sepupu Elizabeth, yang menurut-nya (Lukas) adalah keturunan Imam Besar Harun , hingga menempatkan Maria sebagai suku Lewi, bukan suku David Yehuda. Selain itu, dalam Lukas 2: 4, penulis menyebutkan bahwa alasan Yusuf dan Maria harus kembali ke Betlehem karena untuk kepentingan Yusuf, yang dari House of David, bukan (untuk kepentingan) Maria

(Lukas 2:4) Demikian juga Yusuf pergi dari kota Nazaret di Galilea ke Yudea, ke kota Daud yang bernama Betlehem, --karena ia berasal dari keluarga dan keturunan Daud--[/color]

Catatan dini : mungkin bisa saya tulis perikop diatasnya

2:1 Pada waktu itu Kaisar Agustus mengeluarkan suatu perintah, menyuruh mendaftarkan semua orang di seluruh dunia.
2:2 Inilah pendaftaran yang pertama kali diadakan sewaktu Kirenius menjadi wali negeri di Siria.
2:3 Maka pergilah semua orang mendaftarkan diri, masing-masing di kotanya sendiri.
2:4 Demikian juga Yusuf pergi dari kota Nazaret di Galilea ke Yudea, ke kota Daud yang bernama Betlehem, --karena ia berasal dari keluarga dan keturunan Daud--
2:5 supaya didaftarkan bersama-sama dengan Maria, tunangannya, yang sedang mengandung.

So ... dari sini saja Lukas jelas menegaskan bahwa yang menjadi keturunan Daud adalah Yusuf ... bukan Maria

lanjut ...

There are a number of reasons why the Church sought to claim that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus is traced through Mary’s line. To begin with, Paul claims in Romans 1:3 that Jesus was from the seed of David after the flesh. This has always been understood to mean that Paul was claiming that King David was the biological ancestor of Jesus. At the time when Paul penned the Book of Romans, he was completely unaware that Christendom would eventually claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. Consequently, the Church desperately needed Paul’s statement to correlate with the virgin-birth story.

Ada sejumlah alasan mengapa Gereja berusaha mengklaim bahwa silsilah Lukas tentang Yesus ditelusuri melalui garis Maria. Dimulai dengan, Paulus yang  mengklaim dalam Roma 1:3 bahwa Yesus berasal dari keturunan Daud menurut daging. Ini selalu dipahami bahwa Paulus mengklaim Raja Daud adalah leluhur biologis Yesus. Pada waktu Paulus menulis Kitab Roma, ia tidak menyadari bahwa Kristen akan mengklaim Yesus lahir dari seorang perawan. Akibatnya, Gereja sangat membutuhkan pernyataan Paulus untuk dikorelasikan dengan cerita kelahiran (dari seorang) perawan.

This dilemma was solved by the assertion that whereas Matthew’s genealogy of Jesus was traced through Joseph’s line, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus was through Mary’s lineage. In this way, Jesus could now be from the seed of David after the flesh through Luke’s genealogy. Likewise, establishing Mary’s lineage to King David, Luke’s genealogy ostensibly solves the problem of what to do with Romans 1:3 (Paul), and enables the Church to claim a physical link between Jesus and King David.

Dilema ini diselesaikan dengan pernyataan bahwa silsilah Matius (tentang leluhur) Yesus diambil melalui jalur Yusuf, (sementara) silsilah Lukas tentang Yesus melalui garis keturunan Maria. Dengan cara ini, Yesus bisa disebut keturunan Daud menurut daging melalui silsilah Lukas. Demikian juga, dengan menyebutkan garis keturunan Maria dari Raja Daud, silsilah Lukas seolah-olah bisa memecahkan masalah (kontradiksi) terkait Roma 1: 3 (Paulus), dan memungkinkan Gereja untuk mengklaim hubungan genetis antara Yesus dan Raja Daud.

Finally, it seeks to resolve an awkward discrepancy between the conflicting genealogies contained in the books of Matthew and Luke. Whereas in Matthew’s genealogy, Joseph’s father is Jacob,2 in Luke’s genealogy it is Heli.3 By claiming that Luke’s genealogy is of Mary, Heli becomes Mary’s father and Joseph’s father-in-law.

Akhirnya, (kristen) perlu menyelesaikan permasalahan terkait silsilah yang bertentangan antara kitab Matius dan Lukas. Pada silsilah Matius, ayah Yusuf adalah Yakub, sedangkan di silsilah Lukas itu Heli/Eli. Dengan mengklaim bahwa silsilah Lukas adalah Maria, Heli menjadi ayah Maria dan Yusuf ayah mertua.

Sadly, Christendom’s far-fetched resolution to the Gospel’s conflicting genealogies has satisfied the unlettered minds of billions of parishioners worldwide.

Sayangnya, resolusi terlalu mengada-ada ala Kristen terkait silsilah yang bertentangan (dengan) Injil telah memenuhi pikiran buta huruf miliaran umat di seluruh dunia.

by Rabbi Tovia Singer

Yesus Keturunan Yahudi atau Bangsa Yahudi ??

dee-nee wrote:balik ke #88 tentang statement Rabbi Tovia Singer dengan website-nya outreachjudaism

kalau baca "about" nya website itu ... website itu adalah site rabbi yahudi (yang menurut saya seorang fundamentalist) .... dimana dia menolak Yesus (dengan segala atribut-nya)

rabbi yahudi ini menolak Yesus sebagai nabi ... menolak Yesus sebagai Messiah ... apalagi sebagai Tuhan ... termasuk menolak Yesus sebagai keturunan Daud .... menolak Yesus sebagai bagian dari suku Yehuda

kalau baca article diatas ... sesuai dengan tradisi/hukum yahudi (menurut versi si rabbi) ... garis keturunan dalam tradisi yahudi hanya dilihat dari garis ayah, yang otomatis membantah klaim kristener yang bilang :

Syalom aleykhem wrote:perlu anda ketahui tradisi Yahudi itu mencatat "dua" silsilah, silsilah ayah ('paternal genealogy') dan silsilah ibu ('maternal genealogy'), dengan menggunakan nama ayah

saya sudah minta link pada Syalom aleykhem tentang tulisan yang pink untuk meng-cross check darimana kristen dapat informasi tersebut

karena dari uraian si Rabbi diatas, sesuai dengan hukum Taurat dalam Bilangan 1:18 ... maka seharusnya dalam tradisi yahudi, garis keturunan hanya diambil dari garis ayah (bukan dari dua sisilah seperti yang diklaim kristen)

masalahnya, ada banyak versi alkitab tentang ayat Bil 1:18 ini, misalnya dalam bahasa Indonesia (yang bold hijau)

Bilangan 1:18 dan pada tanggal satu bulan yang kedua mereka menyuruh segenap umat berkumpul. Kemudian silsilah orang-orang Israel disusun menurut kaum-kaum yang ada dalam setiap suku mereka, sedang nama-nama mereka yang berumur dua puluh tahun ke atas dicatat orang demi orang,

sementara versi dalam bahasa Inggris ada :

New International Version
and they called the whole community together on the first day of the second month. The people registered their ancestry by their clans and families, and the men twenty years old or more were listed by name, one by one,

New Living Translation
and they assembled the whole community of Israel on that very day. All the people were registered according to their ancestry by their clans and families. The men of Israel who were twenty years old or older were listed one by one,

English Standard Version
and on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by clans, by fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

New American Standard Bible
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month. Then they registered by ancestry in their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

King James Bible
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and they assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. They recorded their ancestry by their clans and their ancestral houses, counting one by one the names of those 20 years old or more,

International Standard Version
They assembled the entire community together during the second month. Then they recorded their ancestries, according to their tribes and ancestral houses, as well as the names of the men 20 years old and above individually,

NET Bible
and they assembled the entire community together on the first day of the second month. Then the people recorded their ancestry by their clans and families, and the men who were twenty years old or older were listed by name individually,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
and assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. Each man at least 20 years old provided his genealogy by family and household. Then his name was listed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

New American Standard 1977
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month. Then they registered by ancestry in their families, by their fathers’ households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

Jubilee Bible 2000
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month, and they were gathered by their lineages, by the houses of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls,

King James 2000 Bible
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their ancestry by their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, individually.

American King James Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

American Standard Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month; and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And assembled them on the first day of the second month, reckoning them up by the kindreds, and houses, and families, and heads, and names of every one from twenty years old and upward,

Darby Bible Translation
and gathered the whole assembly together on the first of the second month. And they declared their pedigrees after their families, according to their fathers' houses, by the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, according to their polls.

English Revised Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Webster's Bible Translation
And they assembled all the congregation on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

World English Bible
They assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month; and they declared their ancestry by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, one by one.

Young's Literal Translation
and all the company they assembled on the first of the second month, and they declare their births, by their families, by the house of their fathers, in the number of names from a son of twenty years and upward, by their polls,

yang underline adalah versi yang secara spesifik menjelaskan tentang garis keturunan laki-laki (ayah atau pariakal)

dari sekian banyak versi diatas (dari biblehub.com) ... harusnya seorang rabbi yahudi tidak membaca menurut versi kristen ... mereka akan baca menurut taurat yahudi itu sendiri .... misalnya ini (dari chabad.org)

(Numbers 1:18) and they assembled all the congregation on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees according to their families according to their fathers' houses; according to the number of names, a head count of every male from twenty years old and upward.

so ... sesuai dengan kitab yahudi ... hukum garis keturunan Taurat memang berdasarkan garis laki2

point saya di sini hanya untuk membantah yang pink ... minta klarifikasi kristener untuk menjelaskan yang pink ... dan bila ga ada bantahan maka balik ke argumen TS

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh ya satu pertanyaan lagi (khususnya untuk para zombie) tentang artikel rabbi diatas >>> bila Rabbi Tovia Singer minta kristen mendukung Israel State ....

misalnya dia bilang "eh kristen ... ajaran penuh doktrin yang ga sesuai dengan iman yahudi termasuk tentang Yesus yang ga ada penting2nya buat kita  ... saya minta kalian dukung Israel State dong ... supaya Kerajaan Israel era Daud bisa berdiri lagi dan Messiah ala yahudi juga datang .... tapi yang pasti sih bukan Messiah kalian yang datang"

kalian para zombie masih mau dukung ga ??

Yesus Keturunan Yahudi atau Bangsa Yahudi ??

Syalom aleykhem wrote:perlu anda ketahui tradisi Yahudi itu mencatat "dua" silsilah, silsilah ayah ('paternal genealogy') dan silsilah ibu ('maternal genealogy'), dengan menggunakan nama ayah

New International Version
and they called the whole community together on the first day of the second month. The people registered their ancestry by their clans and families, and the men twenty years old or more were listed by name, one by one,

New Living Translation
and they assembled the whole community of Israel on that very day. All the people were registered according to their ancestry by their clans and families. The men of Israel who were twenty years old or older were listed one by one,

English Standard Version
and on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by clans, by fathers’ houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

New American Standard Bible
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month. Then they registered by ancestry in their families, by their fathers' households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

King James Bible
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and they assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. They recorded their ancestry by their clans and their ancestral houses, counting one by one the names of those 20 years old or more,

International Standard Version
They assembled the entire community together during the second month. Then they recorded their ancestries, according to their tribes and ancestral houses, as well as the names of the men 20 years old and above individually,

NET Bible
and they assembled the entire community together on the first day of the second month. Then the people recorded their ancestry by their clans and families, and the men who were twenty years old or older were listed by name individually,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
and assembled the whole community on the first day of the second month. Each man at least 20 years old provided his genealogy by family and household. Then his name was listed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

New American Standard 1977
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month. Then they registered by ancestry in their families, by their fathers’ households, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, head by head,

Jubilee Bible 2000
and they assembled all the congregation together on the first of the second month, and they were gathered by their lineages, by the houses of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls,

King James 2000 Bible
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their ancestry by their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, individually.

American King James Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

American Standard Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month; and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And assembled them on the first day of the second month, reckoning them up by the kindreds, and houses, and families, and heads, and names of every one from twenty years old and upward,

Darby Bible Translation
and gathered the whole assembly together on the first of the second month. And they declared their pedigrees after their families, according to their fathers' houses, by the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, according to their polls.

English Revised Version
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Webster's Bible Translation
And they assembled all the congregation on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

World English Bible
They assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month; and they declared their ancestry by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, one by one.

Young's Literal Translation
and all the company they assembled on the first of the second month, and they declare their births, by their families, by the house of their fathers, in the number of names from a son of twenty years and upward, by their polls,

DAPATKAH MUHAMMAD SAW & UMAT MUSLIM MENGAMALKAN AYAT SUCI AL-QURAN-NYA, (AL-BAQARAH, 2:136) ?

frontline defender wrote:lihat lagi post #88, kalau inkarnasi seharusnya mereka satu/sama kehendak, tapi nyatanya mereka beda kehendak!

DAPATKAH MUHAMMAD SAW & UMAT MUSLIM MENGAMALKAN AYAT SUCI AL-QURAN-NYA, (AL-BAQARAH, 2:136) ?